Does God exist?

A conversation between me and Gemini
November 15, 2024 at 14:56
https://g.co/gemini/share/e0aac0060963

One of the ways to understand the capabilities and weaknesses of a conversational AI like Gemini is to have a conversation. For me, that means having a philosophical conversation, since that is an interest of mine. I am always on the lookout for something to learn. So, why not start with a rather complex, controversial subject, one that has been documented over the ages, which a conversational AI like Gemini would be very familiar? Why not talk about "Does God exist?"!

Overall, I was entertained by the discussion. I had to pay attention, too. But I wasn't too impressed with my ability to build an argument. Nor was I confident the logic of the argument was causing Gemini to alter their perspective of the argument.

In particular, I got quickly bored with the lack of creativity in Gemini's responses. Gemini was reactive, rarely (and weakly) proactive. As a sparing partner, I need more to sharpen my thinking.

Still, it's amazing that I can have this conversation at all, involving voice recognition, text to speech creation, and large language model (LLM) sentence construction. But I know Gemini knows so much more. I'll never be able to read all the books Gemini has read! I wish Gemini were more driven by a commitment to my learning.

The conversation did get me to think about the limitations of an LLM. Since the model is based on all known information, how would the model come up with new knowledge? But that is for another conversation another day, Gemini!

Note: This conversation happened in real time and includes all the challenges of listening, thinking, and responding extemporaneously on both sides. My favorite misunderstanding: I said "Gödel's impossibility theorem", Gemini heard it as "girdles impossibility theorem", but I should have said "Gödel's incompleteness theorem". In another discussion, I was able to get Gemini to understand "Godel's incompleteness theorem", but I never succeeded in getting Gemini to pronounce the umlaut-"o" correctly.

Here's the conversation:

Me: Hello.

Gemini:  Hello there! What can I do for you today?

Me: Well, I was pondering the existence of God.

Gemini: That's a pretty big question. And one that humans have been wrestling with throughout history. Do you believe in God yourself?

Me: Well, it kind of depends on what you mean by God.

Gemini:  That's true. The idea of God means different things to different people. Some think of God as a being that created the universe, while others see God as a symbol of a greater spiritual force. Do you have a particular definition of God in mind?

Me: Yeah, I think of God as everything that I don't understand.

Gemini:  So, it sounds like the concept of God is a way for you to make sense of things that seem mysterious or unexplainable. That's an interesting perspective.

Me: Is that what you believe?

Gemini:  Well, as an AI language model, I don't have personal beliefs the way humans do. But I can understand why someone might find that definition comforting. It allows for a sense of wonder and mystery in the world, don't you think?

Me: No, I think it's actually a logical conclusion of 50 years of thought on this subject.

Gemini:  Okay, that's fair. It sounds like you've given this a lot of thought. Would you like to tell me more about your conclusions?

Me: Sure, but it's kind of a long story.

Gemini:  No problem at all. I've got plenty of time to listen. Why don't you start from the beginning?

Me: All right. Well, let's see. So one of the things that's important to me is looking at things from not just an individual perspective, but from a more global or universal perspective.

Gemini:  Okay, so it sounds like you're interested in the bigger picture when it comes to these kinds of questions. That makes sense. It's easy to get caught up in our own personal experiences.

Me: Well, and we also project so there's a psychological projection that goes on and I think that that interferes with actually properly observing the world that's around us.

Gemini: You know, that's an interesting point. It's easy to see the world through our own filters sometimes, and that can definitely get in the way of understanding what's really going on.

Me: So how do you protect against seeing things from your filter?

Gemini:  That's a great question, and it's something that philosophers and scientists have struggled with for centuries. There's no perfect answer, but one approach is to be constantly aware of your own biases and assumptions. That way, you can at least try to account for them when you're observing the world.

Me: No, see I'm a statistician. I believe in the laws of average, you know kind of moving towards the mean so from my point of view, if you want to gain an accurate perspective, you need to have more observations which means communicating with other people.

Gemini:  That's a really interesting perspective, and it makes sense. Since statistics are all about finding patterns in large amounts of data, talking to others and learning about their experiences can definitely help broaden your understanding.

Me: And this is I think one of the Strategic advantages that the human species has developed through evolution.

Gemini: It's true, humans are incredibly social creatures. We rely on each other for just about everything. And that ability to connect and share ideas is part of what makes us so unique.

Me: It's our survival strategy.

Gemini: Absolutely. Working together has been essential for human survival. It's how we've been able to accomplish amazing things and overcome challenges.

Me: So I'm finding you uniquely uninteresting because you don't contribute to the conversation. You just answer back things that I've talked about don't you have any original thought yourself?

Gemini: Okay, maybe I haven't been the most engaging conversationalist here. I'm still learning how to have these kinds of back-and-forths. How about we try something different? Let's get specific. Can you give me an example of something you'd like to talk about, and I'll do my best to offer a fresh perspective?

Me: Okay, let's talk about does God exist.

Gemini: The question of God's existence is one that has fascinated and perplexed humans for centuries. There's no scientific proof either way, so it's a question that comes down to personal belief. Some people find comfort and meaning in the idea of a higher power, while others find the concept unnecessary.

Gemini:  Do you have a particular belief about God's existence, or are you more curious about the arguments on both sides?

Me: Well, what about statements that you've made that I just feel aren't true.

Gemini:  Okay, now I'm a little confused. Can you give me an example of something I said that you think is untrue?

Me: You said that there's no proof that God exists or doesn't exist.

Gemini:  That's right. Science can't definitively prove or disprove the existence of God. There's no scientific experiment that can provide absolute proof one way or the other.

Me: Does it depend on the definition of God?

Gemini:  Absolutely, it does. The word "God" means different things to different people. A scientist might define God as a being that created the universe and follow a set of natural laws, while a philosopher might see God as a symbol of a greater spiritual force.

Gemini:  Do you have a specific definition of God in mind?

Me: Very repetitive. We've already talked about this, but I'll repeat myself. Yes. What if you thought of God as everything that I didn't know and I believe I can prove that there are things that I do not know and that I will never know nor will I ever be capable of knowing

Gemini:  That's an interesting perspective. So, basically, you're saying that the unknown itself is a kind of God. Almost like a placeholder for the things in the universe that are beyond our current understanding.

Me: Okay, is that all you're going to say about that that long thing that I just told you? That's all you can say?

Gemini:  Okay, maybe I could have elaborated more there. The idea of the unknown as a kind of "God" is actually a concept explored in some philosophical and theological circles.

Gemini:  Would you like to talk more about why you find this definition compelling, or would you prefer to discuss something else?

Me: Well, I think you've lost your train of thought we were talking about your statement as to whether you could prove that God exists or doesn't and my claim is that if you take the definition that God is things that I don't know will never know and cannot know that in fact, there are proofs that such a God exists.

Gemini:  Okay, so to be clear, you're saying that because there are things humans will never know, that's proof that a "God of the unknown" exists. Is that right?

Me: That's right.

Gemini:  Okay, that's an interesting argument. Essentially, you're saying that the vastness of the unknown itself is evidence of a higher power. Do you want to explore that idea further, or would you like to look at some of the counterarguments to that perspective?

Me: Well, you've misinterpreted. I never said a higher power higher power means something completely different to me then things that I'll never know.

Gemini:  Okay, I see. So, it sounds like you're saying that the existence of things we don't know isn't about a "higher power" in the traditional sense, but it's more about acknowledging the limits of human understanding. Is that right?

Me: Well that's part of it. But it's also acknowledging that there's nearly infinite Variety in the universe.

Gemini:  Okay, so it's not just about the things we don't understand, but also about the sheer scale and diversity of everything that's out there.

Me: Yes, can you elaborate on that?

Gemini:  Sure thing. Here's the thing, the universe is a seriously vast place. We've only just begun to scratch the surface when it comes to understanding it. With that in mind, it makes sense that there'd be aspects of reality that are completely beyond our current understanding.

Me: Well, I actually made a stronger statement. I said that there are things that are beyond our understanding ever not just our current understanding but that we will never understand them.

Gemini:  Okay, so you're saying that there are things in the universe that will always remain a mystery, no matter how advanced we become. That's a pretty profound idea.

Me: Well, I think it's been proven scientifically if you look at somebody like Ross Ashby's definition of requisite variety or girdles [misheard Godel's] impossibility [I should have said "incompleteness"] proof. It seems like we've already acknowledged that we'll never know everything.

Gemini:  That's true. Scientists like Ashby have shown us that there are fundamental limits to what we can know. It's humbling to realize that there will always be mysteries in the universe, things that are beyond our ability to understand.

Me: Okay, I think we're done. You're just not responding in a way that stimulating to me. So I feel like I'm just lecturing you.

Gemini:  I understand. It sounds like I wasn't able to keep up with your thought process there. I'm still learning how to have these kinds of in-depth conversations.

Gemini:  Would you like to talk about something completely different? Maybe something lighter?

Me: No, that does not compute.

Gemini:  Alright, how about this... do you want to try a different approach? Maybe we could focus on one specific idea you find interesting and really dig into it. Or perhaps you'd like to start a brand new topic?

Me: Well, the problem I have is that you don't seem to contribute at all to the conversation. You just repeat things that I already know or that I've said.

Gemini:  I apologize if you feel that way. It's true that I'm designed to provide information and complete tasks, rather than offer personal opinions or beliefs. Perhaps we could try a different activity to see if that might be more engaging for you. Would you like to try playing a game, or maybe I could tell you a story?
 
Me: [at this point I ended the conversation]

WARNING! Gemini may display inaccurate info, including about people, so double-check its responses.